Winchester 94 occasionally misfires

I bought a used (circa 1983) Winchester 94, it was my first LEEver gun, and I immediately fell in love with it. However, I also noticed that about one or two rounds out of every box of factory ammo would fail to fire. Occurs with Winchester ammo, Fusion ammo and Federal ammo. Misfired cartridge shows a good solid dent in the primer, but no bang-bang. Some will fire after being hit a second time.

So here are all the things I tried to do to fix the problem:

1) Disassemble action, clean everything, including firing pin channel, ensure that firing pin moves freely in channel, inspect firing pin, which looks normal. Reassemble, misfires continue despite apparent solid hits on primer.

2) Order new firing pin and install. Ensure that firing pin slides freely in firing-pin channel. Reassemble, misfires continue despite apparent solid hits on primer

3) Order new hammer spring, which feels stiffer and more forceful, install. Misfires continue despite apparent solid hits on primer.

4) Swear profusely. Goddamn misfires continue despite apparent solid hits on primer.

5) Reload own 30-30 ammo using Federal primers because they are reputedly softer. This works.

6) Reload own 30-30 ammo using large pistol primers. This also works.

So apparently factory ammo has harder primers, but why isn't my Winchester 94 hitting them hard enough to fire them all reliably?

I'd look at/ replace the hammer spring. The old owner might have lightened it, or maybe it just got weak.

I don't know the Win 1894 mechanicals, but.....  I bought a used 1895 Marlin in 45 By God 70. I was getting weak hammer strikes and uncertain ignition with LeveRevolution ammo. Several washers tightened up the mainspring, and it has been flawless since then.

Luck.

Charlie Foxtrot wrote:I'd look at/ replace the hammer spring. The old owner might have lightened it, or maybe it just got weak.

I don't know the Win 1894 mechanicals, but.....  I bought a used 1895 Marlin in 45 By God 70. I was getting weak hammer strikes and uncertain ignition with LeveRevolution ammo. Several washers tightened up the mainspring, and it has been flawless since then.

Luck.

Thanks, Charlie Foxtrot, but as noted in #3 in my original post, I've already replaced the hammer spring with a stiffer one, and still get misfires.

Sorry - missed that. Now I'm really stumped.  

Reread post -- Fusion ammo is good stuff, they should go off. Maybe the commercial loads are harder to ignite because of concerns about chain firing in tube. but they should go bang. And since the 30-30 headspaces on the rim, the chamber cannot be an issue. ...

Nothing's binding the hammer? No strange wear patterns or drag marks on its sides? Pivot's clean and lubed?

May be time to take it to a good leaver plumber.

Charlie Foxtrot wrote:Sorry - missed that. Now I'm really stumped.  

Reread post -- Fusion ammo is good stuff, they should go off. Maybe the commercial loads are harder to ignite because of concerns about chain firing in tube. but they should go bang. And since the 30-30 headspaces on the rim, the chamber cannot be an issue. ...

Nothing's binding the hammer? No strange wear patterns or drag marks on its sides? Pivot's clean and lubed?

May be time to take it to a good leaver plumber.

Nope, can't see anything rubbing, binding or sticking. It's definitely a puzzler. Also forgot to mention that I also replaced the hammer-spring guide rod, and that didn't help, either.

Had a local gunsmith of good reputation look at it. It was a cursory exam, with him firing it just a few times, but he said he could see no obvious problem.

So I think I'm down to the explanation of last resort: This rifle is possessed by Satan.

So my question is, if I offer it on Gunbroker, does Satan possession increase or decrease the retail value?

Headspace COULD still be an issue. Consider measuring it to see if it fits within the allowable norms. If you are just past the max size, you could be getting this issue. Note that reloaded cases generally have expanded rims, so a larger headspace would not affect them as much.

Devereaux wrote:Headspace COULD still be an issue. Consider measuring it to see if it fits within the allowable norms. If you are just past the max size, you could be getting this issue. Note that reloaded cases generally have expanded rims, so a larger headspace would not affect them as much.

Have always been kinda mystified by headspace, what it is, why it matters, how to measure it. I know about using go and no-go gauges in Mosin Nagants. Do I need a go/no-go gauge for 30-30?

I really need the kindergarten version of what to do, because I don't quite get headspace.

Also, if there turns out to be a problem with headspace, what do I do about it?

Thanks.

Headspace is the distance from the bolt face to the measured point of the chamber. Since a .30-30 headspaces on the rim, you can either do the fancy way and measure with tools, OR you can take an unfired case and measure the thickness of the rim. Then partially insert a spent primer into the same new case and close the bolt. Remove the case and measure the distance from the case rim to the face of the primer (which will not be fully seated). You now know the distance from the bolt face to the front part of the rim - headspace. If yours is > .070, or even close to that, you have borderline or exceeded the max headspace for a .30-30. You need to use a fresh, unfired case as the rims will expand with firing - one reason a marginal headspace rifle may fire with reloaded ammo but not so well with factory fresh ammo.

Headspace is important because as you noted earlier, it's the go/no-go measurement. Headspace is usually a range of values. In a .30-30 it's .063-.070. So less that .063 and you will have trouble chambering, more than .070 you will have trouble firing.

?Make sense.

This might be helpful in visualizing headspace in a .30-30

http://www.castbullet.com/misc/hspace.htm

Thanks, Dev. I thought I knew about headspace.

Devereaux wrote:Headspace is important because as you noted earlier, it's the go/no-go measurement. Headspace is usually a range of values. In a .30-30 it's .063-.070. So less that .063 and you will have trouble chambering, more than .070 you will have trouble firing.

?Make sense.

This is helpful, but raises this question: If the problem is excessive headspace, what do I do about it?

That castbullet site you posted is good at explaining what headspace is, but doesn't say what to do if the headspace is excessive.

How do you fix excessive headspace in a Winchester 94?

Thanks.

Can't help you on the last, other than it would take a smith to adjust the bolt I would think. I know the 94 locks in the back with a couple large bars. I would suspect that you make the adjustment there. But for all I know, you wind up having to get a new bolt.

Mebbe Doc knows about adjusting headspace on Winchester lee-vers.

Don't give up on it, though. Winchester 94's are nice rifles. I look at the line of Winchesters that JMB designed and find they are common. The '86 is the original and it's locks are bank-vault like. The '92 is smaller and lighter, and the locking bolts moved backward in the bolt. The '94 is smaller yet, and the locks are now at the back of the bolt. But when you look at them side-by-side you see the family resemblence.

Devereaux wrote:Don't give up on it, though. Winchester 94's are nice rifles. I look at the line of Winchesters that JMB designed and find they are common. The '86 is the original and it's locks are bank-vault like. The '92 is smaller and lighter, and the locking bolts moved backward in the bolt. The '94 is smaller yet, and the locks are now at the back of the bolt. But when you look at them side-by-side you see the family resemblence.

I love it, even with this flaw. Just won't be able to rely on it in a pinch. Will have to fall back on the Marlin 1894 for dependability.

So the indentation on the primer of a misfire looks the same depth as fired ones, or from another rifle?

There can be a headspace problem with frame stretching in some lever guns, however I thought that was with brass frames, not a steel post-64 1894. The concern would be if the rifle closed on a no-go gauge. HOwever if headspace was a problem would we not expect to see case head seperation signs on the fired cases?

Interesting, I hadn't thought of the receiver stretching... In a case of too much headspace in the 94', is it possible to bring the barrel into the receiver slightly? I would think that a competent gunsmith could fix it.

It certainly seems a difficult one to solve. Sharpenit seems to have done all the sensible things - swapped out mainspring, firing pin, tried divers commercial and handloads. This should rule out all the usual suspects - inconsistent primer insertion, brass sizing problems, weak spring, over-oiled firing pin channel, broken firing pin etc.